Kim Swanson: 0:03

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. We're taking time to discuss construction materials, testing and inspection with people in the know. From exploring testing problems and solutions to laboratory best practices and quality management, we're covering topics important to you.

Brian Johnson: 0:19

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. I'm Brian Johnson.

Kim Swanson: 0:23

And I'm Kim Swanson.

Brian Johnson: 0:24

Yeah, today we have a guest, benjamin Trujillo, from Integrated Quality. That is his own organization, correct, benjamin? That is correct, yeah. So, benjamin, where are you coming from?

Benjamin Trujillo: 0:38

I'm coming from Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Brian Johnson: 0:41

Yeah, beautiful landscape there in New Mexico. Now we brought or invited Benjamin he's not here against his will. We have invited Benjamin here to talk about quality and we know that Benjamin is a consultant who works in the quality world and it is not a typical job that somebody just has. So you usually have come about doing this kind of work from past experiences, right with quality. So my first question I have for you, benjamin, today, is how did you get here, how did you get into this line of work.

Benjamin Trujillo: 1:24

Well, that's an interesting question, and the longer I'm in the field I can sort of push the envelope further back into my past about how I think I got here, because some of it was certainly what were the professional opportunities that I had before me? And from that line I was in my late 20s and I was doing a job that I was burnt out on. It wasn't working out and, quite frankly, I went to a temp agency and they said, oh, there's this engineering firm that they need help with records and document control, which I had background in just from working in various office jobs. And so I ended up there and showed an affinity for organization and, for lack of a better word, I enjoy managing records and filing and organizing. I enjoy managing records and filing and organizing. And they basically looked at that and said, hey, you know we need to have a quality manager. Would you be interested in that?

Benjamin Trujillo: 2:37

And I can say I didn't know enough to say no and I was interested enough to say yes, and so I did, I did and from there, through the benefit of just projects that came along and some mentors as well, it just sort of unfolded in front of me as a career path that I found interesting and that touched on a lot of the things that I like to do, which is, again, I like to organize things.

Benjamin Trujillo: 3:06

I'm also very interested in how systems operate, so how office structures operate, how we do work, and then I got to interact with all of these people that were doing really interesting things that I didn't do. So it started just this firm they had a testing laboratory, and so getting to watch people doing you know, asphalt testing, concrete, soils, aggregate, and just having a curious attitude of you know, hey, what's that for? Why are you doing this, and then seeing how quality interacted with that. It was just a nice confluence of things I enjoy doing and opportunities to learn a lot more about the field of construction, materials and design, engineering and all manner of things.

Brian Johnson: 4:01

Yeah, now you cut your teeth on quality in the construction materials testing industry, as you were just describing, and as a consultant, I wondered if you have gotten involved in any other industries that you've carried these quality concepts into.

Benjamin Trujillo: 4:18

I have, and primarily it's been the other side of the fence, which is design agencies. So, looking at everything, to begin with a design study, through the actual development of the design, be it in a design build or design bid build, et cetera how do you set up those processes for control of the design set and then into construction support? But I've also worked with a firm they build kilns and ovens. So they needed some help coming up with a quality system that they could use.

Benjamin Trujillo: 5:01

And I deal a lot also just with agencies that they have different types of requirements that they have to respond to. So I'm guessing most of your listeners, of course, they hear requirements and they think AASHTO R18, astm c 1077, and those you know, and there's just a whole cacophony of requirements out there that various organizations have to respond to. And one of the things I learned when I opened up my own shop was I suddenly had this great opportunity to learn all about all other types of requirements that are out there that people need help figuring out. Well, how do I respond to this, what does that mean from a work process, and so it's just been a sort of an incredible arc in that way.

Brian Johnson: 5:54

And I know just from working with our customers in the Western States, quite a few of them work on nuclear projects and I wondered if maybe that is one of the areas that you've gotten involved with, because I know there are a lot of process requirements for that, a lot of quality requirements. Have you worked in that industry as well?

Benjamin Trujillo: 6:14

I have worked heavily in the nuclear industry.

Benjamin Trujillo: 6:18

As you asked me, I'm in Albuquerque, new Mexico. I'm within 100 miles of two national laboratories. We also have a Department of Defense presence, so it's very much a part of the economy of the state that I call home. At the same time, nuclear being that it's such a heavily regulated industry is from the standpoint of quality assurance. I think one of the most exciting fields to be in, because we're given requirements that our clients need to be able to comply with.

Benjamin Trujillo: 7:02

But figuring out how to do that effectively and how to not have spillover of those processes into other project areas is it can be a real tough nut to crack. I mean, for me it's exciting. That's what I love to do is help people figure out. Okay, I need to be able to respond to the designer construction of just a commercial structure, but I also need to be able to respond in the event that I'm doing something that if something goes wrong during construction, during operation, during decommissioning, there could be true adverse effects on the workforce, the public, the environment, effects on the workforce, the public, the environment.

Benjamin Trujillo: 7:47

How do I have a quality system that I can efficiently leverage across my company so that everyone is working to the same process but we're not hampering ourselves with sideways motion. That from my experience. From my experience, it diminishes efficiency, keeps people from buying in and it hinders quality because it becomes an obstacle instead of a support system. So nuclear is great as sort of a sandbox to really dig into a lot of quality processes. To really dig into a lot of quality processes.

Kim Swanson: 8:24

If Benjamin is familiar to you, or maybe familiar to you because he has been part of a speaker at TechX, I think, since its inception, since 2017. Is that right, benjamin?

Benjamin Trujillo: 8:37

I was at the first one in Maryland. I think I only missed the one that was in Minneapolis. Yes, you know, grateful to have been invited to all of them to present.

Kim Swanson: 8:56

Yeah, no, your sessions, I know, at TechX are always well received. You get amazing feedback from that, and you've done the Quality Manager 101 and 201 and other things for us as well. But I want to know what you're here to talk about specifically today, and so we had some emails back and forth before we recorded and it was, I believe, what we decided on. Now you're going to be like, no, this wasn't it at all, but, as I say it, you're going to be like, no, that's not what.

Benjamin Trujillo: 9:23

I said Show me the contract and we'll do a review, Exactly right.

Brian Johnson: 9:27

Let's kick it back and forth for a little while.

Kim Swanson: 9:29

Right. As I'm saying, I'm like, oh man, this better be the right one, but it was how to operationalize quality. Is that what we're talking about? Going to be talking?

Benjamin Trujillo: 9:39

about.

Kim Swanson: 9:49

Yeah, that is such a nice broad term that we can talk about many things and say, yes, we were on topic. But yeah, that is exactly right. No-transcript.

Benjamin Trujillo: 10:15

I think the easiest way I've come up with to describe it is we want to make sure that both the responsibility and the capability to invest quality into the organization, into the project, the product, whatever it is, that we drive that responsibility and capability down to the closest level of the people that are actually doing the work. So, speaking to the CMT industry, how can I get technicians to understand their responsibilities under the quality program? But I think, even more importantly, build their capability so that you know some of this will sound very housekeeping but you know down to things like making sure that concrete field sets are cleaned, ready to go, the equipment is verified and that those verification records are on file if we need them things like that To when they're out in the field if something's gone wrong with one of their pieces of equipment. You know that they understand things like well one. You know we have a backup plan so that I can get more equipment and actually continue testing without disruption of service and actually continue testing without disruption of service. But I understand what needs to be done is sort of triaging the equipment and what will be done afterwards, once out of the field, so that the laboratory can put into gear what it needs, to check out the equipment, see if it's something that's repairable. Maybe it just needed to be re-verified or, you know, do we have a larger problem? How many data sets might we have to go look at for prior reported data out to clients, you know.

Benjamin Trujillo: 11:57

But having people understand where they fit, sort of, in these processes and why we're asking them to do what we do, it's a common response, you know. Why are we doing it this way? Oh, because the quality program says we have to, you know. But what really it comes down to oftentimes is we're doing things this way because we've found that that's how we can make sure that both the individuals in the company are protected. Because we've protected the data, we've protected our reputation by no one's losing their cool because the air meter clogged up out in the field, and saving other people's time and effort. There's really nothing worse than being presented with the opportunity to go review perhaps up to a year's worth of data reports, because that's the last time, say, the compression machine was calibrated and someone's got to make sure we didn't send out bad data, you know, and someone's got to make sure we didn't send out bad data. So it's from my perspective, it's a way to really empower the workforce.

Benjamin Trujillo: 13:17

When we talk about operationalizing quality, do it because I say you got to do it to. We're doing this because this is what our company stands for, this is what we as individuals stand for. And I would add to that coming out of nuclear, where nuclear safety is such a big concern, and for those maybe not familiar with nuclear industry, when we talk about nuclear safety, that's really where I've got the potential because of a failure, of there being a radioactive release that impacts the environment, the public or the workforce. But we can also think of it in terms of life safety, with highways, bridges, things. I don't think any of us want to be in a situation where we look at a nuclear safety or life safety event and go, oh, I might have had a hand in that failure, either through negligence or gross misconduct. What's my responsibility, you know, in essence, to my environment and to the people I work with or just the people I live around.

Brian Johnson: 14:30

A potential client that reaches out to you. What is the number one thing that they are calling about?

Benjamin Trujillo: 14:43

What is the main problem they're trying to solve is either hey, we want to go for an accreditation and so we're going to get a visit from the accrediting body to come in and do their first audit. Sometimes they might have a quality program begun, sometimes they might have a well-established one, sometimes they might not have one at all. So that can range anywhere from. Would you perform an audit of our program and its implementation to help us be ready for the accreditation visit? Or it could be help. We need a manual, we need process documents, we need the whole thing. Can you build that for us? And I'd say that then translates over as well? Again, given the industry I'm in, we just got a nuclear project and we've been told we have to have an ASME NQA1 compliant program. Do you know how to build one of those? Do you know how to build one of those? So, broadly speaking, those are, I'd say, no-transcript.

Brian Johnson: 15:53

Yeah, you've given quite a few examples of really well-meaning, well-intended, quality-oriented reasons that somebody might hire a consultant to help them with some quality issues.

Brian Johnson: 16:07

But one of the things I always worry about when I hear a laboratory say I don't really know what to do, I'm going to try to find a consultant to get me in order with all my quality stuff, but it's like a separate thing, it's like something that I don't really have time for.

Brian Johnson: 16:28

So we're going to kind of offload this quality portion, which would fly directly in the face of this idea of operationalizing quality, because it's not part of the operation anymore, right? So one of the questions that I had going into this for you that I thought I was just really curious about is how often you run into that where you get a client that hires you and you and you soon discover that, oh, they don't really want to change, soon discover that, oh, they don't really want to change, they just want somebody who will say, okay, here's the stuff that will allow us to check the box and say that we're in conformance and move on, and then we'll get back to doing things the way that we were doing it all along. Do you run into that ever? And if so, how do you convince them that that's not the right way to go?

Benjamin Trujillo: 17:17

So I'd say, first off, one of the hallmarks of whether or not I will do business with a client is that we're not going to go down that path. I'm not in the business of giving cookie cutter quality programs. Now that having been said, there are only so many ways you can write a corrective action process. So how creative you want to get with it, that's up to it, but it really has to. If we're serious about operationalizing quality, then there has to be active engagement between, if it's a consultant, the consultant in the company or the internal quality manager in the company to really look at the processes and how we're trying to write them. Looking at it this way, we have the requirements, which are typically pretty well understood. You know we have to make sure that there's a process whereby we've confirmed our testing technicians are qualified to do the tests that they do. Okay, that's the requirement, everyone agrees to that.

Benjamin Trujillo: 18:28

Now, how we get there as an organization? There are myriad ways in which you can run a qualification program for your technicians and one of the biggest things you can bring forward to people is think creatively, think about what makes sense for your organization because, again, the requirement's pretty clear. You just got to have a process and what your process says, though that's what's going to dictate how you do it, how people understand what you do, but so that's what I really encourage folks to take to heart no-transcript, but I think that's all part of the process, and there's a lot of value to be had in making those errors and pursuing lines that maybe you find don't work anymore, because it helps to take away from the quality system the idea that it's this, these are the laws, and we have to follow the laws. It's, yeah, we have requirements we have to meet, but these, at the end of the day, are my organization's processes. They're how I want this organization to do its business, and so I think we've cycled away a bit maybe from your question.

Benjamin Trujillo: 20:14

But again, it's really back to working with management to say, if you're really serious about having an operational quality program, then operations absolutely has to be involved in the development of the processes, because, at the end of the day, you own those processes. The quality manager or consultant assists in their development, maybe in some cases facilitates the update process, for when operations says, hey, this isn't working, we need to figure something else out, but it's really the sense that operations owns it. And when I say operations, that's not just confined to leadership, that's everyone that's got a task called out in that quality program. They're as invested as anyone else in the shape of that program.

Kim Swanson: 21:09

What are some of the signs that you're looking for to kind of know that that company is going to take this seriously and is not just looking for box checkers?

Benjamin Trujillo: 21:18

Probably one of the first signs is do I get to meet leadership of the company To show not just that they have an interest but that they're actually willing to commit resources not just to the development of the program but towards its maintenance? Because there are some organizations where I have developed a program for them and then I also manage that program, and then there are some where I develop that program and as part of the development process they have to identify who's going to be their quality people to oversee the management of that program, and so they've got to be involved from day one with the development so they can understand. Here's why we're slanting things this way. Here's what it says in the parent documents, meaning the code of federal regulations or a department of energy order or an industry consensus standard. So you know the ASTM say we got to do this.

Benjamin Trujillo: 22:25

Okay, we've got to figure out a way that when you're doing your qualification program I know you really wish it was just every three years you had to requalify people. But you know C-1077 had to be different. You've got 24 months. You've got to figure out how to make it happen. So definitely, getting leadership, getting someone identified and in some cases it's just sort of what's their I don't know how to call it, but like level of enthusiasm maybe, for the topic, because I don't want to develop something that just ends up sitting on the shelf. The reason I do quality is because I do think it does help with business efficiency. But again, coming from a nuclear background, a lot of this is about nuclear safety and life safety and I would love to see a world where everyone is very much concerned with what's the state of our infrastructure so that at least it's not because of a bridge failure or signal failure at a railroad crossing that someone lost their life.

Brian Johnson: 23:43

What do you find to be the challenges? You're getting hired by a company to come and help them with improving their quality or establishing some quality management processes. Quality management processes what do you find are the biggest roadblocks for them to accept what you are trying to deliver and just to accept you as being somebody there to help them?

Benjamin Trujillo: 24:13

I think there's always a concern, any anytime an organization hires any consultant, that is this consultant just going to give me something off the shelf and leave me high and dry? So you know, depending on how the organization wants to handle it, you know it could be, yep, here's your program, we're all done. Or it could be here's your program and now I'm your training wheels and let's keep going. Or there are a myriad number of ways to operate coming out of that. But I think that's a legitimate fear. Nobody wants to get burned and be handed something that just leaves them where they started. Other obstacles, I think is always the classic. You know, how do you change the mindset of the workforce from, oh, this is something that's being foisted upon us and turn that into something where they say, oh, I can actually be a contributor. So strategies I've found that have worked is you know, try to be as transparent about the whole process as possible. So that means inviting in stakeholders to, let's say, we're going to, you know, develop the process document for how we control the flow of samples from, you know, the loading dock outside the laboratory to where someone's actually got a test specimen on the workbench in front of them and they're getting ready to do something. Well, that's a lot of people that need to be talked to to find out, you know, what makes sense as a process. More importantly, I think, as a process, more importantly, I think, to give them a sense that, okay, I do have input into what is being asked of me. Also, so they can understand that the writing of these process documents is not meant to in some way be prescriptive on their ability to make decisions or do their work. One of the things I stress to organizations is you know, there are places where organizations have to make decisions about how they want certain things to be handled. But the goal of a process document, when we start to get into the house steps, is to give people the the capability to look at, look at what's presented in front of them by way of a problem or or work, and here's how they go about, you know, wrestling with it and getting a path forward.

Benjamin Trujillo: 26:52

Another practice that I've found is I've got a number of organizations where we basically have periodic meetings to get together and hash out how is the QA program working, and I think the genesis for the first time I tried it was basically it was an organization. I managed their QA program and we had an external audit, and so we got together to basically say, okay, we've got corrective actions, we need to figure out how to deal with these. What are we going to do? And so that started as just sort of a triage focused around the audit, but then it became people would come to it and say well, I'm getting questions from these groups and I'd like to be able to take an answer back to them, because they want to know why do I have to fill this piece of paper out? Why do I have to document this type of review this way?

Benjamin Trujillo: 27:53

And what I've really appreciated is is those meetings have one allowed operations to really drive the changes to the quality program documents, more so than the audits. You know the audit still, you know they come in, you have to deal with them, but it's it's. It's so much nicer when you're, when you're responding to an internally raised issue and figuring it out and making the program work better. You know that's a lot more satisfying. And then, coming back to transparency, having a lot of communication back out about you know, hey, we made a change to these process documents and the reason being we had not foreseen this issue or whatever it is, but it's sort of humanizing the system so that, again, instead of being this set of thou shalt laws that you're going to get written up because you violated laws, that you're going to get written up because you violated it's these are living, breathing processes and here's some proof that you can actually have an impact on the processes that we're asking you to implement.

Brian Johnson: 29:09

I've got two questions left for you. I know I've kept you on for a while, but I've got two left. One of them is about internal audits, because I'm sure that you get asked to perform internal audits from your clients sometimes, or maybe often, because it is an area that laboratories typically at least laboratories in our program typically struggle to figure out how to perform an effective internal audit. But you, as a consultant, you have a lot of knowledge about auditing internal audits quality management system, workflows, processes, stuff like that but you aren't necessarily internal in that you don't know all of the inner workings of what goes on there, all of the unwritten things that happen at one of your clients' facilities. So my question, based on that lead up, is how do you carry out an effective internal audit not being truly internal?

Benjamin Trujillo: 30:12

For a consultant to do internal auditing and consulting. You know that's got to be treated as two very different things. So there has to be agreement up front that you know yes, we're going to have this consultant perform an audit and then we're going to have this consultant come in and help us deal with the outputs of the audit, because there has to be some degree of, there has to be a dependence between the two. So it's possible to do the audit plus consulting, but depending on how that audit, how the client wants to use that audit. Sometimes it can only be one or the other. But, that being said, in a lot of cases I can do a gap analysis, essentially as part of the consulting side, and, yes, you can't get into all the nuances of performance. Usually the gap analysis is done up front to look at okay, what do you have by way of process documents? Maybe they have a manual, and maybe they have a manual on some procedures, maybe they have nothing. But basically it's to say, okay, I've gone and looked at what you've given me by way of documents and I've looked at the criteria that you say you want to be accredited against, and here's where we've got gaps and here's what I think you need to have in your manual to cover the requirements side. And here's where I think you need to develop some process documents so that you can have a place to explain the hows.

Benjamin Trujillo: 31:48

But that's sort of the starting point.

Benjamin Trujillo: 31:50

You know, it's a luxury to be in a position where I get to come in, develop the program and then also do some management of the program, because in best case scenarios I am getting to mentor people who will eventually take over the full operation of that program.

Benjamin Trujillo: 32:10

But it means I also get to have some look into the actual workings of that organization and it's, I think, as I'd said earlier, there's only so many ways you can write a corrective action process with a team that's invested out of that organization. That's where sort of the personality of the company starts to come in and and inform the process document. And that's a really enjoyable part because that's where you see it. You know it's it's breaking away from the, the template, and into something truly unique. So you know, I would say in a lot of ways, that's that. So you know, I would say in a lot of ways, that's why you know, start with a template if you're new to this, and just work the process, because it will build out. If you're diligent about it, it will build out into something that works very well for your organization.

Brian Johnson: 33:11

Yeah, I love that answer because you touched on a lot of areas that I think people struggle with and maybe they don't realize or don't expect when they're taking this journey into quality, where they don't realize that the independence factor that you mentioned, they don't understand that the continual improvement, the development, the buy-in, all of these things have to happen for it to be effective. And, yeah, you can start with a template, like a lot of people always say. Why don't you just give us a template and we'll work with it? Well, unfortunately, what most people will do is they'll take it and that's the end. But if they care enough about it, it'll become something that becomes part of their organization as much as anything else that's part of their organization is.

Kim Swanson: 33:57

For laboratories or for people in laboratories or quality managers at laboratories that really want to kind of help shift their culture at their organization from a box checking kind of thing to more of operationalizing quality. What are some like top five tips you have for those people that want to initiate that change within an organization to make the mindset of, like it, really living and breathing quality Okay?

Benjamin Trujillo: 34:29

Top five. Huh, I mean, we'll see.

Kim Swanson: 34:33

It could be top three, top two. I mean, I just said five because I did. There's no reason for that.

Benjamin Trujillo: 34:39

I mean, I think the first thing I would say is, if that's the inclination, be transparent and vocal about it. And from the perspective of something I like to say is, a good quality system is sort of the infrastructure of the organization. And you know, engineers, technicians, scientists, et cetera, they didn't get into the field. They got into because they want to fill out quality assurance paperwork. They're there to do what interests them. So one of the first things I focus on is always what you know. If I've got documents or records, what do I really need? You know what is required by the standard and can I lean it down, can I make it? You know, basically lessen the paperwork load. And you know I've been as guilty as probably any other quality manager of going through an audit and coming out of it and saying, oh, I know how we'll fix this. We'll have a form and people will fill out the form and sign off on it. And you can just see the folks on the operations side of the table again, hand over their face, just shaking their heads like why did we hire this guy? So you know, looking at how you can lean things down and that gets into, I think, probably one of the key areas. That's a lot of fun to explore but can also be daunting to an organization which is how do you grade application of your quality system? Because, again, we have projects of different levels of risk, different levels of life safety, different levels of complexity. And so, looking at your quality program, and you know saying you know, I know I need to have traceability of my test results to my calibrated equipment. Okay, you know what's sort of the minimum way that I can show that I've got that traceability established? And you know, do I have to work up potentially to a place where I have a client who says I want you to provide me that information as part of you know, my, my test report package? You give me this concrete report. I want to know which brake machine you used, which platens you used, et cetera. And, and I want you to have calibration, you know dates, et cetera. So, you know, having having the ability as uh of a program to actually maybe have some way to help people understand, here's how we can bucket our projects to more readily know, okay, what's the level of rigor that I need to bring in terms of quality processes? How many levels of review, how much documented traceability Do I actually need to keep markups or review comments or can I throw them away at project end, having an exercise to kind of spell that out so that people can go into a project saying, okay, I've got some understanding of how to look at this and assess it for risk. What my clients' compliance dictates are how can I then grade the level of quality, rigor and documentation appropriately, confer with the quality manager to make sure that they don't see that I've gone off the rails.

Benjamin Trujillo: 38:07

But it's a nice way to empower operations so that it's not just here's the quality program. Go make it happen. It's here's the quality program. Go make it happen. It's here's the quality program. Use your professional judgment to look at it and look at your project criteria and let's figure out what the sweet spot is. And you know, I love that because it builds some understanding of quality for the operations. Folks that then have to go through that exercise, which I think helps invest them in the program, but it just makes again for a more operationalized program.

Benjamin Trujillo: 38:43

It's not quality saying thou shalt, it's the organization saying okay, what is the best way for us to manage the risks and the compliance criteria and efficiently execute on what our client has asked us to do so. I think that covers, like you know, engagement, transparency, and then I'd say if you are the consultant or the quality manager or whoever is you know responsible for doing this, don't be afraid to make mistakes and don't be afraid to say I don't know. The answer is, I'll, I'll go find it for you. Um, you know it's. This is about looking at the process and figuring out the process, not not. You know, hey, you got it wrong. You know it's a world of and sometimes really Byzantine requirements that we have to read, and sometimes there are, you know, as many people as read a requirement, interpret it as many different ways. So, you know, that's sort of the reality in which we live.

Brian Johnson: 39:59

Yeah, I'm continually amazed by the creativity that some people have in the way they can read a requirement. So, yeah, that must be a challenge. All right, benjamin, thank you so much for your time today. One last thing. I know I said I was done, but my last question for you is if somebody wanted to reach out to you, this is an easy one. Somebody wanted to reach out to you how would they do it if they want to learn more about your services and how to get involved with you?

Benjamin Trujillo: 40:26

The easiest way is probably send me an at B-T-R-U-J-I-L-L-O at I-N-T-Q-U-A-L dot com, or, if you're old school like me, pick up a phone 505-306-4867.

Kim Swanson: 40:43

Thank you very much, benjamin. And is there anything before we go, anything that you want us or you want to tell people that we didn't ask you? Is there something that you were like, came into this and were like I want to share X, y and Z and we just didn't get there? Is there anything like that?

Benjamin Trujillo: 41:00

We covered a lot of ground and I think we covered good ground. So, uh, no, nothing off the top of my mind, just uh, kim and Brian, again, I thank you very much for inviting me to to be on the podcast. I admit I've listened to it for quite some time so I was like someday, someday I'll be on it. So you've made one of my dreams come true.

Kim Swanson: 41:26

I love that, I love that, but that cracks me up, so thank you for that.

Brian Johnson: 41:32

I love it and thank you for being a founding speaker for TechX, too. I'd say you've been a regular and somebody that people look forward to seeing and learning more about your experience, and every year you're picking up new things from your work that you can share. We appreciate you sharing that with the people at TechX. So thanks again. You will continue to be invited to that until you say no, and then we'll continue to ask until you say I'm sending you a cease and desist letter, and then we'll probably stop at that point, but I can't guarantee that either. So thank you.

Benjamin Trujillo: 42:08

Well, you're very welcome. Thank you again.

Kim Swanson: 42:11

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