Kim Swanson: 0:03

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. We're taking time to discuss construction materials, testing and inspection with people in the know. From exploring testing problems and solutions to laboratory best practices and quality management, we're covering topics important to you.

Brian Johnson: 0:18

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. I am Brian Johnson.

Kim Swanson: 0:23

And I am Kim Swanson. Thanks for joining us today. Listeners.

Brian Johnson: 0:28

Yeah, thanks, yeah, thank you for joining us listeners. And today we're going to talk about a question that I've gotten I mean, I've gotten so many times over the years. We never really addressed it because it's kind of a minor point, but it is a question that we get often, so we want to talk about it.

Kim Swanson: 0:48

Yes, and the question is who should perform the aggregate and rebar assessments CCRL or AASHTO resource? So it sounds kind of like a straightforward question when I say it, but I know there's more to it, because of course it's not a straightforward question. Hello, this is AASHTO Resource we're talking about. There's not just a straightforward answer, unfortunately. So let's first get into why do both CCRL and AASHTO Resource perform assessments for those scopes?

Brian Johnson: 1:26

perform assessments for those scopes, okay, well, I'll start with the basics, and, and that's that, both aggregate and rebar, uh, those, those materials are components of construction on both the uh concrete and masonry side of the house and just general construction materials side of the house. So so we've got uh, rebar and aggregates that are components of any sort of like masonry construction project, and concrete too, uh, although I am going to get into that something that seems like it's missing on the ccl side as it pertains to that. And then you've got uh, just such we we have a whole iron and steel scope on the astro resource side because the dots test those materials and they want that to be included. Um, so that's the main reason why they're both offered, uh, but if you use that logic, you would probably add more things yeah to that as well, like soil testing, you know.

Brian Johnson: 2:36

So there's laboratories that test just concrete, soil aggregate and rebar, so that you know that might be something that CCRO would offer one day, just for one assessment to happen. And then, on the AASHTO resource side, you might say the same thing about concrete right.

Brian Johnson: 2:55

So there's a lot of laboratories that do concrete, asphalt, soil, aggregate and steel testing and they may want just one assessment. So those things are probably questions that have come up from time to time with all of our customers. But we still stick with our core groups of activities and then there's a little bit of bleed over into the other programs. Anyway, so that's the basics of that.

Kim Swanson: 3:27

And to see the full scope of what our assessments and what the CCRL assessments and the AASHTO resource assessments cover or can cover, you can go to our website's perspective like prospectively, the perspective website to see what's covered under each. If you are curious for more details about that, our website is ashtoresourceorg and then CCRL is CCRLus. If you want more information on their scopes of services, we both perform them because our both of our customers want them. Is the short term general answer to that. As those what I'm hearing right right and but.

Brian Johnson: 4:08

But what I was going to say is there are some other things that people would like. So, yeah, I talk about components of masonry and concrete. Welded wire is also another common steel product that goes into uh concrete, for example. But ccl doesn't cover that and I'm not really sure why I've. I've asked them that before and, um, I don't know if they've been working on adding that to the, the the steel scope, or not, but they certainly could Uh, but right now they just have rebar and they also have rebar proficiency samples, and whether you're accredited uh through the AASHTO accreditation program based on your AASHTO resource or CCRL assessments for rebar, you would still be required to participate in the CCRL rebar proficiency sample program, because we don't have that.

Kim Swanson: 5:12

We don't have any overlap resource aggregate proficiency sample because there is no overlap. Am I correct in that or did I?

Brian Johnson: 5:19

That is correct, okay.

Kim Swanson: 5:20

Your face made me second guess myself halfway through that.

Brian Johnson: 5:24

No, you're right on. Like I said, there's no overlap with proficiency samples. So it's AASHTO resource for aggregate and it's CCRL for rebar. But another difference that you'll see in the two programs is the scope. So, like I said earlier, we're talking about rebar. Ccrl will cover rebar in an assessment. Uh, if you look at the iron and steel scope for ashto resource, it's really extensive. So there are all sorts of, you know, bolts and um wire and seven wire strand and, uh, different types of rebar uh, and quite a few options for different tests that you can perform on those that are offered through the AASHTO resource scope. But then, if you look at CCRL, it's basically tensile and bend testing on rebar, so more limited scope on that side.

Kim Swanson: 6:19

Oh, I did not realize that. So I, today I learned um. Today I learned that cause I had no idea I learned Today. I learned that because I had no idea. So if we both can perform the assessments for that, what are some of the factors a laboratory should consider when they're figuring out who to get their assessment through for that?

Brian Johnson: 6:45

Well, one of the main ones that people like to talk about is costs, of course. So I think that it would behoove somebody to look at their total scope of what they're asking for for the assessment and compare the prices of the two and see which one is the uh, which what. Which one is more cost effective? Uh, so that that is one element of it, and I I think it really depends on how big of a scope you're looking at like. If you're looking at a really small scope, you might find that CCRL is a better option for cost, on rebar for example.

Brian Johnson: 7:13

But if you're looking at adding more things, then all of a sudden that could change because you say, well, I'm only getting rebar here, but then I also have to have Azure Resource come in to cover the rest of it. So then all of a sudden it's not such a cost savings anymore. A resource come in to cover the rest of it. So then all of a sudden it's not such a cost savings anymore. Same for aggregate. So I kind of skipped over this.

Brian Johnson: 7:31

But your basic concrete aggregate assessment from CCRL is pretty cost effective for the basic aggregate tests, but then once you start adding more aggregate tests to that, it gets a little bit more, even as far as price goes. Now, like I said, it just depends on the scope that you're looking at, and I haven't done a full analysis of where that break-even point occurs, but it's something that you have to look at if you're new to the program. The other thing you might want to consider is just what style you like, because even though they're supposed to be about the same, the assessments are a little different from one to the next, and if you've had both of them, you probably have a preference, and if you prefer one over the other, then you can make your decision based on that.

Kim Swanson: 8:25

If you already need both the CCRL assessment and the AASHTO resource assessment, then there is really a comparison. But let's say you only need the rebar, but everything else is in AASHTO resource scope, and maybe you're doing soil and then you need to do aggregate or rebar. Then it's, is it like like, is there a?

Brian Johnson: 8:49

it doesn't, it wouldn't make much sense, yeah, it wouldn't make much sense in that case, and that's why I I'm not giving a great answer to this, because it's not that simple. Yeah, uh, the the other aspect of this is that the ashtar resource assessments are are time so that's kind of an it depends answer on its own. How much is?

Brian Johnson: 9:11

this going to cost. Well, we have a general idea based on typical labs, but you might be slightly faster or slightly slower than typical labs, so that could have a impact on the final result of your costs.

Kim Swanson: 9:26

And I'm trying to think of any of the other factors or any of the other considerations that go into this from a laboratory's perspective, of what they should be thinking about. And is this going to be the shortest episode ever? Did we just cover everything we needed?

Brian Johnson: 9:40

to cover. No, we didn't. Okay, I knew I was missing something. Sadly, no.

Kim Swanson: 9:45

I knew we were missing something. I knew we were missing something. I knew we were missing something let's talk about time because time is a big impact. Yes, yes, yes.

Brian Johnson: 9:52

Astro Resource and CCRL have different tours and where those organizations are on the tour and when you request your assessment, have an impact on how much that's going to cost you for the assessment assessment have an impact on how much that's going to cost you for the assessment.

Brian Johnson: 10:11

So let's say you have found that for your scope CCRL is cheaper than AASHTO resource, but CCRL is not coming for another year and a half to your area and if you go through them it's going to cost extra for an out-of-sequence fee. All of a sudden it may be a different story for you as far as what that costs. Same thing can happen on the AASHTO resource side. We might not come to your area at the time you want, and then you have to then have the added challenge of asking each one of the organizations what the out-of-sequence fees will be for you and then you have to determine if that's right. Plus, if you can get everything through the one organization and you have a project coming up and you really want to get accredited right away, you may opt for whichever organization serves your purposes better. So time and money obviously two big factors. Scope is another one and just preferences, yeah. So I think those are the main reasons, okay.

Kim Swanson: 11:24

So this could be a pretty short episode. I mean, there was not that much when you said it's not that short. So, with everything in mind, is there an easy way for customers to figure this stuff out, or is it just getting the information and doing the analysis themselves?

Brian Johnson: 11:41

C-SERAL does have a price sheet on their website that you can look at, whatever the scope is. But if you have special questions about out-of-sequence fees, those would be best to ask them. So contact them and say I want my assessment at this time of year and I want to cover these tests. How much would this cost? And they can give you an estimate that way. Similarly, you can reach out to Ashton Resource. You can actually fill out a request form online and it will give you an estimate for that scope of services and that's based on like typical timeframes. So it'll be pretty close. Like I said, there's a little uneasiness or uncertainty about what that final result's gonna be, but it's gonna be pretty close to that estimate. So you can get an estimate there. But same question about out of sequence Okay, when are you coming? Do I have to pay extra for that? And if you do both of those things, you can get a good handle on what your total expenses are going to be and then you can make a decision on which one you prefer.

Kim Swanson: 12:49

You can get AASHTO accreditation no matter who performs your assessment. So even if CCRL performs it for aggregate or rebar, you can still get AASHTO accredited from it and you will still have to work with the AASHTO accredited from it and you will still have to work with the AASHTO accreditation programs quality analysts to resolve any of the non-conformities found in either one of your reports.

Brian Johnson: 13:09

So no matter who it is, the follow-up to it will be the same, no matter what that's right, and those are the only two assessment providers that will give you AASHTO accreditation at the end of the day, or will let lead to AASHTO accreditation at the end of the day or will lead to AASHTO accreditation.

Kim Swanson: 13:22

You don't have to get it from both groups right. You don't need to double up and get assessment for aggregate or rebar from both. You can pick one and stick with that, or pick one and then switch, depending on the timing right.

Brian Johnson: 13:40

Depending on the timing, is the is the issue. Okay, part yeah so, uh, the problem we have is if, if you've gotten an assessment through one of the organizations and then you want to switch to the other one, you can't skip a tour yeah to to then get it like you can't extend your time interval.

Brian Johnson: 14:00

Let's say that they were both running smoothly at a 27 month interval. You can't get extra time by switching. You can't say okay, well, I'm gonna skip my normally scheduled assessment because I know the next one's coming the following year and I want to drag this out longer. What would happen in that case is you would end up losing accreditation until the next accreditation body rolled through. So typically what people will do when they transition is they'll end up getting an overlap for that one time that they need to transition, and sometimes those are far apart and sometimes they're close. When it's far apart, you don't really notice it.

Brian Johnson: 14:47

You know, if it's kind of in the middle of the of the sequence, but if it's one after the other, uh, people are thinking they have deja vu. They're like I could have swore I just did this. You know, I don't remember, and uh, that it's probably good, and, and it's really a small scope, like in both of these cases, we're talking about, uh what? Five to to six agri tests and and and and rebar tensile and bend for the overlapping scope, so it's not a whole lot.

Kim Swanson: 15:21

Recap it is you can shorten the interval for those two scopes, but you cannot extend the interval for those two scopes when you're trying. If you are switching between assessment providers.

Brian Johnson: 15:35

That is correct.

Kim Swanson: 15:36

Okay, is there anything else that I don't know to ask about this, because there could be for sure, or did we cover all the highlights here?

Brian Johnson: 15:46

I think we covered the highlights. It's not overly complicated, but there just are some considerations people have to have in mind and I think most of the time people have these in mind to begin with, at least on their decision making and what is important to them is concerned, at least on their decision-making and what is important to them is concerned. But I think the only thing people get confused about is the fact that they might have to overlap the assessments before they transition from one to the other.

Kim Swanson: 16:11

Well, thank you for addressing this common question and before we go, I just want to put in a plug. It's this time of year again, as of the recording of this episode that we are gearing up for the 2025 AASHTO Resource Technical Exchange. It's happening March 17th through the 20th 2025, in Bellevue, washington, so go to aashtoresourceorg slash events for more details on that.

Brian Johnson: 16:40

Yeah, it should be a good time. I was actually late for our recording today because I was in a meeting about the technical exchange where we were still putting together the program and figuring out who our guest speakers are going to be. We always have great panelists and roundtables and it's truly an interactive experience. So if you haven't been to a technical exchange especially if you live on the West coast or in Hawaii or Alaska the one in Bellevue, washington, is going to be a lot easier for you to attend than some of the other ones. So hopefully people can check it out and we get a lot of attendees.

Kim Swanson: 17:15

All right. Well, thanks again, Brian, for your time today.

Brian Johnson: 17:17

Thanks again.

Kim Swanson: 17:24

Thanks for listening to AASHTO Resource Q&A. If you'd like to be a guest or just submit a question, send us an email at podcast at aashtoresourceorg, or call Brian at 240-436-4820. For other news and related content, check out AASHTO Resources social media accounts or go to aashtoresourceorg.