Kim Swanson: 0:03

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. We're taking time to discuss construction materials, testing and inspection with people in the know. From exploring testing problems and solutions to laboratory best practices and quality management, we're covering topics important to you.

Brian Johnson: 0:19

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. I'm Brian Johnson.

Kim Swanson: 0:22

And I'm Kim Swanson, and welcome to another episode of AASHTO Resource Q&A. I'm Brian Johnson and I'm Kim Swanson, and welcome to another episode of AASHTO Resource Q&A. What are we here to talk about today, brian?

Brian Johnson: 0:31

Today we're going to talk about a development in concrete standards that I don't know, that everybody is aware of, and this may take us on a bit of a sidetrack conversation to standards development.

Brian Johnson: 0:51

So, we'll see this is going to be really short or way too long, but you'll be able to tell by how much time is on the episode, so don't worry. What I want to talk about is this new full standard. The standard designation is AASHTO R119. 119. And it's a 2024 date on that one. It is the standard practice for grinding the ends of cylindrical concrete specimens. Are you with me?

Kim Swanson: 1:25

I am. I am with you. I'm confused that it's an R designation, though. But why am I confused? I feel like that's not normal. Am I just not remembering things correctly? Because that's also a possibility.

Brian Johnson: 1:36

Well, Rs and AASHTO are standard practices. So, those are things that you do that do not produce a test result.

Kim Swanson: 1:44

Gotcha. That's why I was thinking.

Brian Johnson: 1:47

Okay, yeah, so this is a practice for grinding the ends of the cylinders and the reason why this standard exists is because we created it. So this is a case where I can't take full credit because there were others involved, but this was my standard that I worked on because I saw a need there. You remember our episode on UHPC? Yes, Ultra high performance concrete. With ultra high performance concrete, you pretty much have to grind the ends of the cylinders plain to 0.002 inches before you test them for compressive strength. For regular concrete cylinders, you often will use sulfur or gypsum capping or pad caps, but those materials aren't strong enough for ultra high performance concrete, so you use a uh end grinder. Now, these end grinders are not the same as what a lot of people try to use for typical cylinder uh grinding, which would be like a handheld grinder or a uh, just a kind of regular like uh what saw you'd get at home depot or something like that or some other uh place where you'd buy something like that uh. So I thought it was good to have a standard so that we could standardize the process and then ultimately make that an option for people in standards like uh, AASHTO, t24 and ASTM, c31, uh and c39 AS ASHTO r39 r39 and R100. So for those of you and C1856, which that's the UHPC standard. So the idea is that this is kind of like. This needs to get woven into the fabric of all of these standards, in my opinion, so that it is a regular option.

Brian Johnson: 4:03

So what I did is originally this was published as a provisional standard in AASHTO. In the provisional processes it has to get renewed every two years or voted on to go to a full standard. Thankfully, there were some of the members of AASHTO and some of the DOTs I believe Florida and Texas helped out with this more than most because they use the UHPC materials at times and they contributed to it. So that's why I can't claim full ownership of this standard. So what makes an AASHTO standard An AASHTO standard is consensus from the DOT. So those members helped out, made some really good revisions that made my rough standard a much better standard, as the consensus process does. And now what we have is this full standard that can be used for accreditation purposes and referenced by other standards.

Brian Johnson: 5:00

So what I did at that point now that this is live, I'm trying to lobby the other committees and subcommittees to consider adding it. So reached out to the various AASHTO technical subcommittees and main committee and the ASTM subcommittees and main committee to get this added. And one other standard that I really want to get this added to is ASTM C1077, because right now it allows for capping use of pad caps and that's it. But sometimes if somebody is used to working with UHPC all the time and they say I just want to grind all the ends and be done with it, they would have an option to do that for certification purposes of their technicians and for a required test method to be included in their scope of services. So a lot there with accreditation certification standard use.

Brian Johnson: 6:01

But I want to make people aware that R119 is out there. I know we have people overseas that listen to this at times and they may not know about the development of this. So I hope you check this standard out. It would be in the 2024 standards volume for AASHTO standards volume for AASHTO and it would also be available anywhere you get standards like ASTM, Compass or IHS, they should have that as well. I know Compass does. I don't know about IHS, but I assume at this point they would have it. Anyway, that's my public service announcement slash promotional message about R119.

Kim Swanson: 6:42

So is there a ASTM equivalent to this, or is it just only an AASHTO standard?

Brian Johnson: 6:47

Of course you would ask that question. No, there is not an ASTM equivalent to that.

Brian Johnson: 6:53

The current agreement between ASTM and AASHTO is that if there is a new standard developed in one, the other standard development organization will not develop a the same standard in the other one. Uh, now, as an AASHTO employee, I probably should have taken it to AASHTO first, but I didn't. Uh, actually did talk to ASTM in a committee meeting, cause I was in a committee meeting when this uh, before I fully developed this thing, I said, hey, are you interested in this? Because I think it would make sense to refer to this, and I can't remember which subcommittee meeting I was in. But there was no interest in developing such a standard in ASTM. So I then took it to AASHTO and that subcommittee was interested in that. So that's where it resides. So there was a discussion. I think if both of them were interested, I probably would have talked to both of the organization's decision-making people who can have a say in the standard and say I think this is good for both of them. So it would be nice to have a truly joint standard that could get balloted to both at the same time and have that be like the guinea pig for trying that kind of balloting, because I really do.

Brian Johnson: 8:22

When it comes to the joint standards, it's never really been a joint standard, even if you see AASHTO and ASDM on the same one. What would be truly a joint standard would be one where the memberships of both committees are voting on the same changes to the same standard and are approving this exact same one, but they don't really. It doesn't work that way. I hope that one day it will. It would take a lot of effort and a lot of okay, I don't know how to say this, but in a way that people understand.

Brian Johnson: 8:57

But sometimes there are the processes at the end of the line will dictate what happens at the beginning. We call that the tail wagging the dog in our country, but there's probably a phrase for that in other places as well. But I think that one of the reasons why we we would struggle to to do that is because the meetings are held at different times. So that's not a great reason from a process perspective to say like we can't. We can't do this because of this arbitrarily at one point, arbitrarily selected date for meeting, uh, for these, these activities, uh. But I think that is that is not the only roadblock in this process, but it would certainly be one of them and so just I want to recap, of making sure I understand this is that the ashto r119 right?

Kim Swanson: 10:09

is that the right? Did I say that right? Okay, r119 you're trying to get now that it's a real, real live standard, it's an official standard um, you're trying to get that referenced in other standards applicable standards of saying, instead of their own. This is how you do it, just like. Do it like AASHTO R119. Yeah, that's right.

Brian Johnson: 10:36

And that's kind of the way it goes for practices they really only have value if they're used in standard test methods and other standards as well, and otherwise it just kind of hangs out there as a practice that nobody's requiring. And uh, and I'm not saying they have to require it, um, but I think it at the beginning, if people aren't really sure about it, they could at least have a note or something that says you can also, or or you may, consider using this standard, uh, for certain circumstances, you know, whatever however, they want to define it if they want to go light at first, because this, you know, these things can take some time and and I'm not saying the standard is perfect, I mean it's.

Brian Johnson: 11:21

It's probably like no standard is perfect, so it it's going to have revisions, but I think just getting it out there and getting more people using it is the way to improve it. So, uh, we want to make that happen and and I hope people will start checking it out.

Kim Swanson: 11:38

So how often will it be revised Like? How often? Like you said, no standards perfect. So how often will people be looking at this at AASHTO, making sure that it is still relevant and useful?

Brian Johnson: 11:52

Well, because it's a full standard now it'll go into the normal routine of it has to be updated every so many years and I should be able to rattle that off, but I can't remember. If it's eight years, like in ASTM, it's eight years, it might be less in AASHTO it might be six, but I just can't remember right now.

Kim Swanson: 12:14

But it could be sooner if someone found a need and wanted to ballot changes.

Brian Johnson: 12:18

Oh yeah, as needed always applies in standards, except well, in ASTM and AASHTO, at least, like some standards, they don't want to do it too often because it's too disruptive, like I would say. Like R18 is a good example of a standard that you don't want to update all the time because there are all these systems that are kind of tied to how that document is laid out. So you don't want to constantly disrupt people unless it's important. So we had some small changes take place, but the big ballot is going to be coming out here soon. But again, standards development can be a slow process, so I don't, even if everything goes well with that one, it'll be two years before people see those changes in reality.

Kim Swanson: 13:07

All right, and is AASHTO R119 available for the AASHTO accreditation programs? Can laboratories be accredited for that starting now or not?

Brian Johnson: 13:17

yet? Yeah, it's available for inclusion in the AASHTO accreditation program. For inclusion in the AASHTO accreditation program, all they have to do is request to have it included in the CCRL inspection and they can add it to their program and start accrediting for it. And we can start accrediting for it, but nobody's going to want it until it's required or referred to and some of the other standards that they are required to be accredited for.

Kim Swanson: 13:46

That makes sense. So anything else about this, because I feel like we are right on the cusp of this being its own episode. We were going back and forth, so is there anything else that you want to talk about this and then we can wrap up this discussion.

Brian Johnson: 14:00

I don't think there's anything else to throw in here. I mainly want just people to be aware of this standard. We can make this a mini episode. I think that probably is fine, because we've dragged this conversation out longer than I had expected, which this happens.

Kim Swanson: 14:21

It definitely does.

Brian Johnson: 14:23

I often will go on too long about something. I hope I didn't, though I hope that there was some useful information here for people, even though I feel like I may have gone on too long.

Kim Swanson: 14:33

Well, I hope we didn't go on too long and that our listeners are still listening, but I did want to put a plug in. We are gearing up for the 2025 AASHTO Resource Technical Exchange, as at the time of this recording, it will be March 17th through the 20th in Bellevue, washington, again in 2025. So if you've never been to a technical exchange or you may hear us refer to it as TechX if you've never attended, this is a great opportunity for you to get involved and expand your network and really explore topics that really help you improve your professional life.

Brian Johnson: 15:17

I'm going to say I'm going to say that's a thing I would agree. I would agree, I would agree, I would agree. I think one of the advantages of technical exchange is all the people thatcontractors that you end up using for testing. All sorts of opportunities await when you attend TechX.

Kim Swanson: 15:56

Yes, and you can find out more information about resourceorg TechEx at aashtoresource. org/ events. Well, thanks for taking time to discuss AASHTO R119 today, Brian.

Brian Johnson: 16:10

I am very happy to do it. As I said, I wanted to get the word out about this standard, so hopefully we were successful.

Kim Swanson: 16:19

And if you have questions about the standard, you can reach out to Brian or catch him at TechX, because I'm sure he will be there.

Brian Johnson: 16:27

I will be there and I'm also going to be on the mid-year meetings for the comp meetings, talking about this at the relevant ones, and I'm going to be at the ASTM meeting in December in Orlando also pushing this standard. And I guess I should mention I am pushing this standard but not because I I don't like, stand to gain anything by this, other than the fact that I think it would be really useful for people uh, to have it, and other than this recording, and people who have worked on this with me they'll have no idea that I had anything to do with it, and that's totally fine. I almost didn't even mention my involvement in it, but you might be wondering, like, why I care so much about it is because I put a lot of effort into it. Anyway, that's my soft sales pitch, I guess, on that, I'm not, there's a reason Was it soft?

Brian Johnson: 17:21

Well, there's a reason that I'm not in business. I would be a horrible business person.

Kim Swanson: 17:28

I'm going to not comment on that, but thanks for joining us and see you next time.

Brian Johnson: 17:37

All right.

Kim Swanson: 17:41

Sounds good. Thanks for listening to AASHTO Resource Q&A. If you'd like to be a guest or just submit a question, send us an email at podcast at aashtoresourceorg, or call Brian at 240-436-4820. For other news and related content, check out AASHTO Resources social media accounts or go to aashtoresourceorg.