Kim Swanson: 0:03

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. We're taking time to discuss construction materials, testing and inspection with people in the know. From exploring testing problems and solutions to laboratory best practices and quality management, we're covering topics important to you.

Brian Johnson: 0:18

Welcome to AASHTO Resource Q&A. I'm Brian Johnson.

Kim Swanson: 0:22

And I'm Kim Swanson. In today's episode we're going to talk about a new policy and guidance document that's available on our website, and I'm not sure what the title is, Brian. Which document is it?

Brian Johnson: 0:33

This is a new policy called the AASHTO, accreditation Policy and Guidance on Masonry Unit and Prism Testing.

Kim Swanson: 0:42

Well, that sounds very interesting to some people, I'm sure, but I have no idea what those. Those are just words to me, but I do know when we have a new policy and guidance document, it's normally because we're trying to solve a problem or add clarification. So why have we created this document?

Brian Johnson: 1:03

I am going to take you back to 2019 to explain that.

Kim Swanson: 1:07

Okay.

Brian Johnson: 1:07

So in 2019, there was an update to a standard C1716, which is the standard specification for compression testing machine requirements for concrete masonry units, related units and prisms. I'm going to also explain explain before you ask that question. What are those things? Uh, so a masonry block or a masonry unit or concrete masonry unit is what most people typically call a cinder block, so that it is like a. Uh, it is a constructed concrete block that has usually two open cells in the middle. Uh, and it looks almost like if you, if you stood it on its uh side or or its highest point, it would look kind of like a snowman. Okay, so it would have like two openings. Are you with me?

Kim Swanson: 2:11

Or figure eight yeah, no, I'm good. When you said cinder block, I got it.

Brian Johnson: 2:15

Yeah, cinder block. Okay, all right, good, okay. So there are all kinds of different blocks, masonry unit blocks out there. That is the most common one that you will run into. So there's all kinds of different designs that you could have. And then a prism that we're talking about is as defined in C1314, which basically, if you took it's almost like constructing a mini version of a wall where you'd have, or, or um, or whatever you're constructing with the concrete masonry unit, where you've got the, the masonry unit, uh, along with any mortar or grout that's associated with that in the design, and usually what you do is you'll have it'll be like a two block instruction, and sometimes it's cut, uh, cut down to smaller sizes before constructing it to be tested.

Kim Swanson: 3:15

So and that's called a prism it's called a prism.

Brian Johnson: 3:19

Yes, so yeah. Today I learned yeah, so yeah.

Kim Swanson: 3:21

Today I learned.

Brian Johnson: 3:22

Yeah, so basically, like what happened in 2019 was in this ASTM c1716 1716, there was some clarification provided about the bearing blocks on the compression machine, so those would be the parts of the compression machine that are in contact with the specimen being tested, and there are certain dimensional requirements and ways you determine what those dimensional requirements are, and what happened is the way they were defined created a situation where machines that used to be in conformance were no longer in conformance.

Kim Swanson: 4:04

Oh OK.

Brian Johnson: 4:06

Yeah, so there's some explanation needed and really the standard does provide plenty of explanation. But the problem is something happened called COVID-19. And it led to a CCRLwas where was not visiting laboratories to evaluate their compression machines for about about a tour long, which is like two to three years, which is why we're now dealing with that in 2025, and we really started dealing with this in earnest in 2024. So that's when we started determining if we needed a policy on this and determining what that would look like and having it approved by the administrative task group for publishing. So now, in 2025, we have a policy out there and what it does is it doesn't delve into what they need to do as far as 1716 conformance is concerned.

Brian Johnson: 5:13

But one of the things we found out is that some people are just going to say well, we don't really care that the machine isn't in conformance for full-size specimens because we only test reduced size specimens. So if they're going to say that, that's fine, they can do that, but we want to make sure that they understand that we're going to identify that on our directory, which then creates situation where those who have a machine that can test full-size specimens get to be recognized for testing full-size specimens. That way, if you have any clients or agencies that want to require only full-size specimens, they can go on our directory and differentiate between those who can and those who cannot test those specimens, between those who can and those who cannot test those specimens.

Kim Swanson: 6:05

So on the directory will it list both full size and reduced size, or will it only have reduced size? And if it doesn't have anything, then it means it's both or something.

Brian Johnson: 6:17

Yeah that's a good question, because we have done those things as you described in the past where it was ambiguous as to whether they are.

Brian Johnson: 6:27

You know, does the lack of extra certification mean that they're good? And so I think we've learned. We do learn from our mistakes at times and we actually explained this in the policy where we're going to list for C-140, which is the concrete masonry unit standard, we're going to list for C140, which is the concrete masonry unit standard. We're going to list both full-size concrete masonry units and reduced-size concrete masonry units and those as far as the practical procedures in place for that. Those are things that can be done by the testing lab. So if they get a full-size specimen and they have to reduce it to test it in their machine, they can saw cut that in their facility.

Brian Johnson: 7:13

On the other hand, for C1314, which is the standard for testing prisms, which is what I was talking about, those constructed prisms, which is what I was talking about, those constructed prisms that is going to be clarified by saying C1314 prisms constructed of full size concrete masonry units and there will be a C1314 prisms constructed of reduced size concrete masonry units. I know that's kind of a mouthful, but it does provide clarification, because people do not wet saw those in the laboratory. What they need to do is have those constructed in the field, typically by the masons that are building the structure. They have to. The technician has to have that prism constructed by you know somebody who knows what they're doing. I don't think it says that specifically in the standard, but I have asked around to people I know in the industry and said, hey, what happens? Because it doesn't really say in the standard who constructs this? And almost every person I asked said the mason constructs those in the field for the technician to take back to the laboratory for testing.

Kim Swanson: 8:38

Okay Now is there any laboratory that would be accredited for both the reduced and full size? So they're listed. That never is going to happen.

Brian Johnson: 8:48

That is never going to happen, because that is a limiting factor. So if you can test full size, you can test reduced size.

Kim Swanson: 8:56

You can Yep Okay.

Brian Johnson: 8:59

Yeah, so yeah, but you would.

Brian Johnson: 9:02

The full size would be kind of a. They have broader capabilities than those testing the reduced size ones. So what we've done in this policy is just explained why this exists and what kind of evidence do we need to ensure that their machine? So, like, some of the laboratories are going to modify their machine to make it conform to the requirements so that they can continue to test full size specimens. So we've explained in the policy what they need to send in to us so that we can verify that they have actually adhered to the policy to us, so that we can verify that they have actually adhered to the policy. Uh, and that includes things that you'd expect, you know, purchase, uh evidence of the packing slip or uh showing that they purchased the new um bearing surface, um pictures of the setup, uh dimensions that are required for us to confirm 17, 16 conformance, conformance measurements. And it just gets into more detail about all the nitty gritty details that we need to see so that we can confidently state that that laboratory is in conformance with these requirements.

Kim Swanson: 10:20

And so this would indicate that they don't need another on-site inspection to verify this. They can all do that through the quality analyst.

Brian Johnson: 10:29

That is correct. Yeah, we don't need to send somebody back out there for this. We can rely on their measurements, unless we have concerns about what's being presented to us. So yeah, and as much as we'd like to say that we can rely on everybody for providing us accurate information, there are times where people send us things that we look at and we say that it's not accurate. You know, that is obviously not what they're really doing.

Kim Swanson: 10:57

Yeah.

Brian Johnson: 10:58

So that's not always the easiest thing to ascertain, but we do our best to do that. There is one other wrinkle in this that I need to go over, okay, because it is something that we've never clarified before, but Okay, let's iron this wrinkle out. Yeah, starting when this gets published or when this is published. From now on, we will not accredit any testing laboratory for C140 or well, I guess it didn't really happen with C-1314, for laboratories that only test coupons. Now what is a coupon right?

Kim Swanson: 11:39

Yeah, no, I'm just. I'm learning that all these words have different meanings in the in masonry things. So, yes, please explain coupons to me. I'm sure everybody listening is already familiar with that, but just for me, can you explain that?

Brian Johnson: 11:52

Certainly, yeah. So what that is is there are some times when, if you are testing in a regularly shaped masonry unit, you may have to cut. Basically, it's like cutting a notch out of it like a little side of the wall of the masonry unit for testing and, um, you can test that in.

Brian Johnson: 12:18

It's kind of like in a pinch you can do this right like it's not, it's not meant for like everyday, yeah, so we're not going to credit anybody who only tests coupons. So the reason why somebody would want to say that they only test coupons is because you could. They're they're really small, so there's not a lot of restrictions on the size of your compression machine for for testing those.

Brian Johnson: 12:45

So that would be a way, if somebody just didn't want to conform but wanted to appear to conform, they might say oh well, we just test coupons all the time and it's like, well, you probably don't, but that's why we're not allowing that. If somebody says they only test coupons, we're not going to allow them to be accredited Through our program For those standards.

Kim Swanson: 13:06

Alright, that makes sense, and I'm just laughing to myself every time you say coupon, so I know.

Brian Johnson: 13:14

I know it's a. It is kind of a strange term, I agree, Like as far as you know, if you just think of the way we use that term normally.

Kim Swanson: 13:22

Yeah, yeah, so I mean, english is a very confusing language for all those different things.

Brian Johnson: 13:29

It's like a discounted country, masonry.

Kim Swanson: 13:34

Yeah, I don't get it, but hey, this is what industry standards, this is what they say. That's what they say. I'll roll with it on this one to actually ask or clarify, I guess, for when you go back a little bit to saying that you needed packing slip, like copies of packing slips, to say that they to show that they've modified it and I do want to make sure that we differentiate that and it is actually packing slips and not an invoice you need to prove that you have the things in hand and not that you just ordered them.

Brian Johnson: 14:05

Yeah that that is a common problem, that we run into because, yeah, that's not for modification, but that'd be for purchase of a new compression machine or new bearing surface.

Brian Johnson: 14:16

So that's what I meant yeah, if somebody did that, anybody can order something. I could order it. I could order one for my house and then cancel the order after I send you the evidence that I've ordered it right. And and over the years we have found that that had happened, where we'd say how in the world did that you know we had? How could this be a repeat finding? Yeah, you know how did this person resolve this? Uh, oh, well, they, they sent us a packing slip, or sorry, not a packing slip, but a purchase order, but I guess they never got it. You know, for one reason or another, and we we could guess about what might have happened. Could have been a supply chain issue, or it could have been they canceled it, or something happened and then they just forgot about it, or they could have done it on purpose.

Kim Swanson: 15:04

Yeah, it's not necessarily malicious, but it does like. But that is why you need actual evidence that you have it on premises and have implemented it, and it's not just. I think this goes back to I'm sure we've said this in some of the corrective action episodes we've had but it's not what you intend to do, it's what you're actually doing.

Brian Johnson: 15:23

That's correct. So that's correct, and we do have issues where some laboratories had multiple locations and perhaps they needed to buy it at one location.

Kim Swanson: 15:36

So we do look at things like OK, where did it get shipped to?

Brian Johnson: 15:37

Is that the laboratory we're concerned about? There's? There's all sorts of things that go wrong that we try to keep an eye out on and, yeah, we do our best to catch them, but I won't say that we catch it every time.

Kim Swanson: 15:53

Well, yeah, but I will say the reason that the quality analysts and the accreditation program is so specific about those things, because it's really saving the laboratories money, because we're not sending somebody back there. Like, if you didn't have all of these like very specific things needed to, you know, resolve the corrective or, yeah, resolve the nonconformity, then it would mean that we'd have to send somebody else back out there to physically check. So this is actually saving them money. Um, even though it kind of seems like some red tapes or some unnecessary hoops, it is actually saving laboratories money.

Brian Johnson: 16:28

It is, and I know people do get frustrated at times with the amount of detail that we present them with. But what we really really try to do is get all the information they need in their hands so that when they're figuring out what to send us, they can get it right the first time, Because one of the big complaints we get is the amount of back and forth that happens with us.

Brian Johnson: 16:50

So we say, okay, well, if you want to avoid that, this is all the stuff you need to send us, and if you can do that, then there won't be any back and forth needed.

Kim Swanson: 16:59

Yeah. So getting back to the actual policy on this, is there anything else that is a highlight or that you feel like needs extra clarification, or just to acknowledge that this is an important part, read this if you're interested.

Brian Johnson: 17:14

Yeah, I think. Read it if you're interested. Most of our policies are really there when you need them. You have a CCRL inspection and during that inspection they've determined that your machine is not in conformance. That inspector will be able to tell you why. So remember what happened during that and you can say well, how did you measure that to determine that it was not in conformance? And those are going to be the kind of things you're going to have to send us at the end, and it's very detailed in 1716, how you determine whether it's in conformance or not. So I don't want to get into too many details about that and it's pretty lengthy and a little complicated, frankly, but it's if you can show us that it's in conformance, you'll be okay. But this is mainly like if you get the finding, then this will help you. If you don't get the finding, you don't need to worry about it. You're already good to go, and if you didn't get the finding, you're probably testing. You're okay to test full-size specimens, and we'll be able to list you that way. I did want to clarify. One other thing, though, is this is one of those changes that will take a tour for us to clarify throughout the entire range of laboratories that are accredited through our program, because as CCRL goes through and they evaluate these machines, then we'll know what their capabilities are and then we'll be able to reflect the directory. Once we go through the corrective action process with each laboratory, we'll try to identify the ones that we can.

Brian Johnson: 18:56

As we implement it. There's a lot of things in flux. Right, there are open files and the quality analyst will ask me hey, do I need to update this one? And I'll say, well, if you're making the decision once the policy is issued, yes, we should do that. Uh, I'm not going to say that it's going to be all of a sudden. You know, when this it gets published, boom, everybody is in conformance or out of conformance and it's reflected on the directory. That's not going to be the case. It's going to take a little while for that to happen. So, like I'm thinking like three years for it to be completely up to date.

Kim Swanson: 19:32

Yeah, I was going to ask what the interval is now generally for CCRL inspections, but it's about three years-ish.

Brian Johnson: 19:39

Yeah, it's about three years. You know, give or take.

Kim Swanson: 19:42

So for clarification on the AASHTO accreditation directory, there may be some laboratories or will be some laboratories that have the listing with no clarification afterwards and then some with the specific clarification. So if you're searching for an accredited laboratory to work on your project and you want to, you know if there's no parentheses after the standard, that means we just haven't assessed them or we haven't, they haven't gone through an inspection yet.

Brian Johnson: 20:15

Right, yeah.

Kim Swanson: 20:16

Or like it hasn't been proven that that's one or the other that they can form.

Brian Johnson: 20:20

Right, if you don't see the full-sized or reduced-sized caveat after those C-140 and C-1314, you'll know that it hasn't been checked yet.

Kim Swanson: 20:30

Okay, so just keep that in mind for all the specifying agencies and project owners that that will take some time to do that, so there will be some possible confusion. So hopefully this document will help clarify that for both laboratories and project owners.

Brian Johnson: 20:48

Right, and one thing I'm hoping is that we don't have a lot of laboratories out there that are currently accredited and are only testing coupons, because I think those laboratories will probably be a bit frustrated if they go through the process and then find out oh we can't be accredited anyway, but really they shouldn't have been if that was the case. So if they really want to be in the masonry unit testing business, they're going to have to upgrade their machines.

Kim Swanson: 21:16

So if you're listening to this and that is you, or- get new ones.

Brian Johnson: 21:19

Yeah, if that's you start setting money aside for that big purchase.

Kim Swanson: 21:24

Start saving for that.

Brian Johnson: 21:26

But really I mean I know from those testing laboratories perspective that might be frustrating, but I mean, if you think about it from the perspective of, if you're a producer of masonry units, you want the test results to be accurately reflecting what your products are. If you're the agency that is specifying those materials be used or products be used, you want to make sure that you're getting accurate information so that the design is right and that you get what you want right. You get what you're expecting. So you know our accreditation and a lot of the services tied to our industry serve more than just one customer. You know we've got the testing labs, got the producers, we've got the agencies requiring it, we've got the public right. So those are all things we have to keep in mind requiring it.

Kim Swanson: 22:18

We've got the public right, so those are all things we have to keep in mind. I think this makes sense. I've learned so much today about just terminology that I didn't know you could use the word prism and coupon in those manners. So I mean, truthfully, that's probably all I'm taking away from this episode, but it doesn't have to be necessarily so. I hope our listeners that need this information have absorbed that and learned that today. As we're wrapping up, I wanted to let our listeners know that the 2025 AASHTO Resource Technical Exchange is just around the corner. It is March 17th through the 20th in Bellevue, washington, so registration is now open. So go to ashtoresourceorg slash events to learn all the information you can about it and to register for the event, and we hope to see you there.

Brian Johnson: 23:05

Yeah, and we still are accepting sponsors and other panelists for some of the meeting discussions where, even though we have an agenda posted on our website, we're still kind of get working out some of the finer details, and so if there's something you see on there and you say, hey, I would love to participate in that, reach out to us and let us know.

Kim Swanson: 23:26

Yep, and you can email podcast at ashtoresourceorg for that, or just info at ashtoresourceorg would be OK for that too, if you were like oh, I want to be a part of the technical exchange in more than just an attendee.

Brian Johnson: 23:40

Yeah, and speaking of that email address, I know it's been a while since I've lamented about the lack of emails that come to podcasts at AshtoreSourceorg, but if you are any listener, if you're listening to this and you just want to send us a message and say, hey, I listened to that, I like this, or I didn't like this, or I exist, I'm a human being that listened to your podcast, we would love to hear from you. We know you're out there. We know you're out there because we see the data on downloads and I've had anecdotal evidence of people listening to different episodes. But we'd love to hear from you and if there's something you want to bring up that we might be able to talk about, that'd be good too.

Kim Swanson: 24:23

Yeah, for sure, we always want feedback, because we're all about continual improvement, and that was what this new policy and guidance document is all about is continual improvement, making sure it's clarifications of things. So we will take your feedback on the podcast, on anything you really want. So thank you very much, brian, for shedding light on this very confusing topic for me.

Brian Johnson: 24:47

Happy to do it and, yeah, I mean we try not to have way too many of these documents, but they're. They're definitely useful and they get us. It is in line with transparency, it's in line with consistency and, like you said, continual improvement. So check out our website for more information about other policy and guidance documents that might be of interest to you as well.

Kim Swanson: 25:12

Thanks for listening to AASHTO Resource Q&A. If you'd like to be a guest or just submit a question, send us an email at podcast at AASHTOResourceorg, or call Brian at 240-436-4820. For other news and related content, check out AASHTO Resources social media accounts or go to AASHTOResourceorg.