SPEAKER_01: 0:02

Welcome to Ashto Resource QA. We're taking time to discuss construction materials, testing, and inspection with people in the know. From exploring testing problems and solutions to laboratory best practices and quality management, we're covering topics important to you.

SPEAKER_03: 0:18

Appreciate you all joining me today. This is going to be a panel discussion, and I will go over the rules next. So I've got four panelists today. They're going to talk about different aspects of laboratory management. Think that they are the master of laboratory management. We're all just practicing what we do to get better. And so a lot of the things that they're going to be relating to you are going to be probably familiar to you. And you've probably experienced some of these things yourselves. But hopefully together we can uh come to some understanding and maybe take some of other people's experiences home with us. Uh and then we can all continue to improve together. So they're going to be sharing their experiences, and you are going to be uh sharing some of your experiences, but also asking questions. And we'll this this will be actually very similar to the podcast. We talked about the podcast, and I thought about it earlier. If we should just start it like the podcast and then just have it out there. But uh we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:46

Maybe it'll happen. It might happen.

SPEAKER_03: 1:48

It might happen. Yeah, we have been known to reuse material. Uh you don't get over 150 episodes without reusing some material. But that's okay. All right. So here's our panelists. We've got Zach McKay. Uh he's a laboratory operations manager from Blankenship, Asphalt Tech and Training. Uh, he is from Richmond. Well, he is in Richmond, Kentucky, uh by way of Mississauga, Ontario, I believe. Is that right, Zach?

SPEAKER_04: 2:17

Close, uh Brandon.

SPEAKER_03: 2:20

All right. Close. Um, next we've got Joe Kirstetter. He's from Tennessee DOT, that is in Nashville. Uh, he's a laboratory process control team lead. Then we've got Keyshore Kotha, uh, principal from ECS in Chantilly, Virginia. And finally, we have Seth Winter, laboratory manager slash QMS internal auditor from Terracon in Cheyenne, Wyoming. So these panelists all have uh different roles and different experience that they can share with you today. Um and I wanted to ask you guys, well, we'll we'll get into this. So we have uh different topics of laboratory management that we're gonna cover. And each one of the panelists is going to address some of these things, and then the other panelists can chime in, or you can chime in as an attendee or ask some follow-up questions. Uh so Zach is gonna talk first about material sample handling and preparation. Take it away, Zach.

SPEAKER_04: 3:23

All right. Thanks, Brian. So a little quick bit about my background. I've got uh about 15 years of experience in laboratory testing, uh, working at the Asphalt Institute and now as laboratory operations manager with the BAT lab. And uh over the years, uh sampling and how we manage those samples is is is extremely critical. Um, one to make sure that we have good representation of the material that we're actually testing, um, because without that foundation of a good representative sample, all your results uh hinge on on getting a representative sample. So we want to make sure that, you know, obviously uh when we grab a sample from a stockpile or grab it from the back of a truck, you know, in asphalt, we deal uh typically with you know hot materials. So we're we're always cognizant about safety as well. But um when we're grabbing those samples, we want to make sure that uh we avoid you know any areas of segregation uh that we're we're sampling from a good portion or a good part of the mix or or aggregate sample as we're as we're sampling. So that is uh some of the critical things, you know, when we're trying to get a representative sample. Um and and of course, we're always trying to follow the most current and up-to-date uh procedures when it comes to uh that process, uh whether that's through the ASTM or AFSTO standards, um, and making sure that our uh uh personnel is also adequately trained uh and and prepared uh for make for grabbing those samples and uh whether it's uh taking it from the field or taking it from uh even in our own laboratory process, how we handle those samples is is very important because uh any influence in those samples can change those test results. Um another critical item that uh we like to adhere to is making sure we have proper chain of custody when we're sampling uh sort of the the the five W's, who, what, when, where, and why. Why we're you know who's grabbing the sample, what are they grabbing a sample from, what is that material? Um you know, when, time of day, um uh because as you move through those materials, the materials are going to change from uh whether you're sampling at the quarry from ledge to ledge, from stockpile to stockpile, um, those kinds of things. And then where, you know, are you sampling it from the roadway? Are you sampling it from back of the paver? Are you sampling at the terminal? Uh, wherever those sampling locations, it's always important to know uh that that good documentation. And then why? Why is your purpose? Is it for forensic analysis? We do a lot of forensic testing where pavements have failed, and we have to understand uh why we're seeing failures. And so having uh some of that reasoning behind it is a good way of uh making sure that uh the next person to handle that sample is well informed.

SPEAKER_03: 6:40

Yeah, now Zach, do you have any tips? I mean, when you have a lot of samples going on in your lab, uh how do you keep them organized? Because there might be ones that are that are, let's say at a at an asphalt mixture lab, you might have ones that are spread out. You may have ones that are in containers in the oven heating up, you may have ones that are in between, you may have different technicians working on them. How do you keep it all sorted so that things don't get mixed up?

SPEAKER_04: 7:06

Yeah, so we have obviously our storage areas um where we keep all of our bulk aggregates um and as well as a couple of storage units off-site, but you know, um, you know, having a having a quant uh material like that uh that takes up a lot of volume and space, we have to maintain that. So we we keep identif proper identification of those uh through our through our system. Um but when we are handling those samples, uh each sample is tagged, labeled. Um we have note cards that we put on every single sample that goes into the oven, whether it's the raw aggregate, the binder sample, or the the mix that we're putting together. Everything has a trackable ID on it so that we can keep track, as well as the replicate number. Um, and and then that all filters back to our quality, our our our management system to handle those samples. So uh everything is ID'd uh that that is in the lab whenever we're testing samples, and and that ID tracks back to the project, um, and and that way we're not uh losing samples throughout the process.

SPEAKER_03: 8:13

Okay, all right. Well, Zach, thank you very much. We're gonna move on to Joseph. Now, Joseph's gonna talk about DOT's per perspective on quality assurance and compliance.

SPEAKER_05: 8:26

The big thing um that I kind of wanted to talk about is is kind of that that uh second part as well, uh, maintaining laboratory accreditation. Um it's it's kind of a um uh chicken and egg kind of thing. We we're told we have to do it. And we in turn end up telling private labs you've got to do this. But in reality, nobody should be telling any of us to do this because you get way more out of it than you put in. It's is hands down the best thing that we have done over the years is getting more involved with our accrediting body, in this case, hashto resource and CCRL. Um, we have learned so much, and everything that we uh get out of our accreditation, out of talking to, coming to discussions like this, um uh just having a uh root cause analysis going through, going back and forth after an assessment. Uh, you learn so much from that. And that's what we should be, that's the mentality we should take from accreditation. We're not doing it because we've been told to. Uh, we're doing it because we're trying to make ourselves better. We are trying to get quality out of our program that in turn improves the quality of, at the end of the day, our infrastructure. Because that's why us DOTs are here is is to further the infrastructure of our country. And that's the reason why we rely on on the independent labs, the contractors, the independent labs, all of y'all as well. So just it's just that little sense of pride in the fact that, yeah, I'm I'm accredited and I'm doing it because I want to, because I want to be better. Um, with that Justin, I'm gonna stop you for a second.

SPEAKER_03: 10:12

We I I appreciate you saying that. We got the same thing out of it. Um, we we get better at what we do by having interactions with the laboratories and finding out what experiences you guys have. Yeah. Uh so it's nice to hear that it's reciprocal.

SPEAKER_05: 10:27

Yeah, yes. Uh it was a big um, it's a it's a little bit of a culture change. Uh that's something that's big around in T Dot right now. Um, we have an initiative, a reorganization going through called Epic, Empowering People, Influencing Culture. Uh, that's what myself and my boss, Mike Doran, try to influence our culture, is just, yeah, we're we're doing this to make ourselves better. It's it's that quality part. And quality is only determined by the customer. That's that's who gets to determine whether a product is quality or not, is the customer. It's not us doing the testing or us putting down the roadway. It's the people who end up driving on it every day.

SPEAKER_03: 11:05

So um, any any questions for Joseph?

SPEAKER_01: 11:09

I actually had a question. So no, so this is gonna be like a podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 11:13

Um, you're gonna steal all the good questions.

SPEAKER_01: 11:15

I'm gonna steal all the good questions if no one's no one's typing it in. So I'm gonna just go ahead and ask. But I was curious, um, Joseph, about how like if you can give an example of one of the ways you are trying to spread that quality mindset uh and like you were talking about with accreditation of how like you want to do better. Is there some give a specific example of things that you've been doing to try to that have worked in trying to spearhead that change and culture shift?

SPEAKER_05: 11:42

I think I think the big thing is to uh shift focus away from the idea because the idea existed um when I was working in a different lab when I was a technician, that every time Ash O Resource or C CRL came out, the assessors are out were here to find something. That was the always that was always the running mentality of all the technicians that that had to go through that was well, they're gonna find something. Let's let's give them something to find or something like that. You know, they all had that mentality of they're out to get us. Uh and that, if you can break that and turn that into a they're not out to get you, they're out to make sure that to make you better. Uh and you can bring that in-house too. Um, if if I'm walking around the laboratories, I'm not looking for somebody, and I'm not looking to get somebody in trouble. I'm looking to see where we're um maybe not doing quite as well as we could be. And if we change something, then again, that's a uh going in the direction of the right direction. That's that's uh that quality mindset. Um and really that's what she that that's what I found to be the most useful thing that that happened over the last decade was breaking that mindset of somebody's always out to get me or somebody's always out to get me in trouble. Um that is not what my position is, and that's not what you know accreditation's about.

SPEAKER_03: 13:05

So thanks, Joseph. Next, well, we are gonna go to Keyshore. So the the the the last two um panelists kind of are gonna be approaching these this laboratory management uh issue from uh different perspectives. So Keyshore is very heavy on process controls. So he's gonna talk to us about optimizing workflows and uh some of the things he's doing as a corporate quality manager and uh principal with ECS. Keyshore?

SPEAKER_00: 13:37

Sure. Thank you, Brian, Kim, and my fellow panels and uh attendees. Uh uh So again, operational efficiency, such a kind of broad term, right? Uh the goal is, you know, this is you're trying to maximize output while minimizing resources, which is such a loose definition. You know, in our context, uh, when we say maximizing output, uh, you know, there are uh the key, the key quality objectives must be met, which is, you know, uh as Joseph and Jack mentioned, you know, the testing must be in strict adherence to the standards, uh reports are complete in compliance with the reporting requirements, uh, the internal policies and procedures are being met within your company, and ultimately the goal is to deliver the reports to the client in a timely manner as promised. So, you know, uh every lab is unique. You know, there is kind of no one-size-fits-all type approach because labs vary by the geography, the size, the scale, the scope of service offerings. So, in a general sense, there are a handful of factors that can be implemented to establish some efficiency. Uh one is, you know, again, uh, as Brian mentioned, you know, uh streamlining the workflows. What I mean by that is you're trying to standardize the processes. And by standardizing processes, it can uh help reduce the errors and establish consistency across, you know. Let's say uh, you know, for example, uh the sample management or the equipment management or the data processing, report management, all these systems, the processes have entails various steps. You know, it has to happen in a sequential manner, you know, of the preceding step has to be, you know, complete before you proceed to the next step. And uh one of the things uh you know really helped is a little plug-in for Astro Resources that uh ECS uh has been uh enrolled in Astro Resources corporate QMS uh program, which has been a great catalyst for us. And we've been participating in this uh for over six years, and that has been like a top-down approach where we were able to establish uh policies and procedures because our company is growing, and uh you know, there's a lot of offices throughout, you know, throughout the whole country. By uh standardizing those processes, policies and procedures, we were able to really establish again consistency, which there is improvements, but we're not there yet. So some of the things what we try to do in our corporate uh QA team is to, you know, the standardize uh templates for the reports, the equipment calibration forms, uh, you know, building systems to enhance the productivity. Uh, you know, it has been a great help. We've been making some great progress. So if there are any firms out there, you know, I strongly do encourage to participate in the Astral Resources QMS corporate QMS program.

SPEAKER_03: 16:57

Well, thank you so much, Keyshore, for sharing your experience. And it was insightful despite what you think. Um next, so we talked about operational efficiency. We're gonna get into some of the personnel management here with uh Seth Winter. Uh so Seth, uh please talk to us about leadership and staff development.

SPEAKER_02: 17:17

Absolutely. I'm the type I'm gonna go bullet by bullet, and that's how I like things organized. I don't free your range all over the place. Um, I would say that in the beginning, it does come down to recruiting because you do need the staff to do the job, and you need the staff before you determine who is the quality staff. From recruiting for the lab, and I'm just gonna say this from my experience, being in the lab from all the other places I've worked, there is never more a melange of individual personality types, skill sets, and attitudes that vary so much, but come together for one specific goal, whether it's quality-based, which you hope it is, or strictly free market business based. Either way, there's seldom two like personalities in a lab is one thing I've noticed between this and auditing our other offices. I typically find that with recruiting, it's kind of a three-tier type of approach. Direct recruiting by putting the job out there and seeing if you're gonna cast a wide net to get someone in. Um kind of the second one would be kind of gauging the skill sets of individuals we've hired for, say, something else, primarily field. And the third is just dumb luck. Um, I have some guys working in my lab right now that were field guys. And for a number of situations and circumstances, they ended up uh being participants in the lab with me before I was their manager. We worked alongside. And I was fortunate and got lucky because uh each one of those individuals that came in from that aspect of it um brought a very unique uh skill set into the lab that benefited the whole. So as it currently stands, I've got three full-time staff members. Two of those were intakes from our field division due to circumstance. One was a direct recruit. We stole him as a QC manager from one of our primary suppliers. I'm not sure how they feel about us now, but it is what it is. It's all fair. So for me, recruiting that is the big one is uh the methods of recruiting for the lab vary as much as the type of people you have in the lab. Um, just because it's not a one size fits all in any way, shape, or form when it comes to lab operations. As far as training and skill development, uh what I first like to see anyone coming in um that has no experience is starting them out on the basics, developing their acumen, their attention to detail, and then uh exposing them to greater and greater and greater things. I am of the opinion that regardless of your staff size, I would rather have uh four guys trained in everything, that redundancy, two is one, one is none, than have one guy at the top with everything, one guy below that's just a little less, and then two guys that have the bare minimum. Um, unfortunately for me, my guys, they're always eager to learn more and more and more. And developing that skill set isn't just about teaching uh newer and newer things. It's also uh identifying the skill sets they had before, like let's say they came from another lab or a producer or something in quality control. Uh you see how they're doing things and you either praise how they've been doing it or you notice subtle intricacies in how they're doing it that might fall outside of uh what the test procedure should be and not being afraid to speak up to that. Um, for someone that has no experience whatsoever, it's developing their mindset and skill level while also eliminating their personal prejudices. I can personally say people I've worked with in the lab, they read documentations from say Ashto. And, you know, my background is criminal justice. So I'm used to reading very long, detailed items, whereas other people look at things from Ashto, C CRL, things like that, and they end up having this mindset of, well, I don't understand this or well, I don't agree with this. But then it's, you know, teaching them why it is so important. Um, so that's one of those ones is every individual has a different need for training and skill set development. Again, uh, nothing is uniform. Quality is the thing that's uniform at the end of the day. That is the one main goal. Uh gotta branch out and be able to meet people on their individual skill sets as they are in the best way to develop them.

SPEAKER_03: 21:55

Thank you guys so much. Uh, appreciate your time and and attention to detail. Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 22:04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 22:05

Thanks for listening to Ashto Resource QA. If you'd like to be a guest or just submit a question, send us an email at podcast at ashtoresource.org. Or call Brian at 240-436-4820. For other news and related content, check out Ashtoe Resources social media accounts or go to Ashto Resource dot org.